019: The Thin Blue Line (1988)

Who wants to do a true crime podcast where the hosts with micophones know better than the police!? The boys take a trip down to shady bumpkin land of 1970's Texas in Errol Morris's chilling critically aclaimed 1988 documentary "The Thin Blue Line". 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:24

People like both movies. Like I think there's a lot of things.

SPEAKER_04 0:26

I just I just feel like general audiences like Sinners a little more from what I've gathered.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

Yeah, and Sinners made more money. So like like yeah, but like but they're but that's because you liked Sinners a little more doesn't mean that you hated one battle.

SPEAKER_04 0:41

No, yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like people just like they'll just like they'll just like um and I think like I think I've seen people like like DiCaprio versus they loved Michael B. Jordan. Like not that DiCaprio gave a bad performance, but I've seen people just think this was a more of a good performance for him versus like.

SPEAKER_02 0:59

Yeah, and that's why also why I don't think that DiCaprio's winning. Like he hasn't been compared. So you're saying you're saying Chalonet is getting it from Marty Supreme? No, I'm saying the Jordan wins actor. It's yeah, and then and then Timmy's two, and then DiCaprio's three, if you want to pick a three, but um yeah, so Wagner Mora is three. No. I there are people who want to like predict him, but I just don't think that Globe win was like a long time ago. And yes, that like Brazil is like the Brazilian voters are are like, you know, they're they're a passionate bunch, they're an influential bunch, but I just don't think it's enough to justify it based on like the secret agent's overall package. Nothing against Wagner Mora. He's definitely like really good in the movie. Um, I like the movie. Um, but I think that like if you're truly ranking like like a three-spot like that, then you should be banking on like the more likely and the more likely scenario is oh, what if one battle overperforms, right? Not that like there's a sudden dark horse black sheep. It's what if the movie, the other movie that everyone liked does even better because they liked it, you know, in which case the veteran actor gets the award because it was truly split and he was the plurality that could sneak out, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know. Um, so like that's the way I would look at that if I was grading it like that.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Yeah. I would be I would be happy with either Chalamet or Michael B. Jordan.

SPEAKER_02 2:27

I just think uh No, I think we should make Timmy wait. We should make him wait and sweat and suffer for 15 years, like Leo.

SPEAKER_00 2:38

Listen, I didn't even really care for Marty Supreme that much, but I really loved his performance. But what someone pointed out, and see, I'm thinking of like the aftermath of this, and someone was like, uh I was listening to playing games with him. I was no, you're fine. I was listening to a pundit today, and uh he was basically saying, you know, it almost feels like let's just give it to Timmy now and get it out of the way, because now if he doesn't get it, then every other now for the next like every big movie he does after this is gonna be like, are they gonna give it to him this year? Are they gonna give it to him this year? So it's like let's just get it out of the way now. Um, which I don't know. I couldn't deserve it.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

What? I said he deserves it. He should he should suffer.

SPEAKER_02 3:27

He should he he deserves it.

SPEAKER_00 3:30

I don't look, I would be happy. I would be happy either way. I don't care, but I am I don't know. I and I like I like Sinners too. I think it would be cool to see them win, but I do have that thing in the back of my head where I think to myself, I think one battle is more deserving, but you know, um that's just we'll see. We'll see.

SPEAKER_04 3:49

I like one battle more, but Sinners is also very good.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

Yeah, no, both of them are great, but yeah, I'm like they're both in my top ten. Sinners is in my top ten for sure this year.

SPEAKER_04 3:59

I do think for actor though, Michael B. Jordan was just a lot better than like it's just more fun, better performance. And he played double duty, you know, to Decaprio. Decapro was good, but like he wasn't the draw to one battle, in my opinion. I do think the direct theme was better for one battle. Like that that was a draw from me. Like just as a complete package, I'm like, yeah, this is fun on every level before me. Versus Sinners, I'm like, oh yeah, like it's it's from it's it's from Dust Told Don or whatever, but like Michael B. Jordan's really good in this.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Yeah. Um just the only the only thing though, I am with everyone elsewhere, especially this past week. I am kind of like, let's get this fucking season over with. I never want to say the word hamnet ever again. Hold on, find time to watch that this week. I really want to watch it. It's been such a long fucking season. It's like everything's on streaming.

SPEAKER_04 4:52

Hamlet's on streaming right now, Bogonia's on streaming, train dreams, yeah. Which people like everybody mixed reviews about it, but I'm interested in it.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Just as I like train dreams.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

I love train dreams. That's definitely in my top ten too. Train dreams was great. That's such a that's such an outdoorsy Dan LL Bean movie.

SPEAKER_04 5:11

What kind of movie is Bogonia?

SPEAKER_00 5:12

I have no idea what the movie's gonna be.

SPEAKER_04 5:14

Oh, you'd like begonia. They think is it like silly? Is it drama? What is it? Like conspiracy theory, sci-fi, drama. Like, I know it's like what they think she's like an alien or something. Uh yeah. But I'm like, the poster. I'm like, is this supposed to be a horror movie? Like the poster? I'm like, I don't understand.

SPEAKER_02 5:32

No, it's it's not a horror movie, no.

unknown 5:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:37

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's it's about these two guys, they're cousins, and they believe they believe that the CEO of this company, this pharmaceutical company, is an alien who's threatening the human race. So they kidnap her and like it like um interrogate her and try to get her to reveal the truth in their basement. That's all you have to know.

SPEAKER_04 5:56

Yeah, but I want to watch Hamnet first. I'm gonna be devastated because I'm a parent. My brother also really, really loved Hamnet.

SPEAKER_02 6:05

I liked Hamnet.

SPEAKER_04 6:06

Um apparently I'm like one of five people who did, but I've seen, you know what it is uh uh Daniel Tosh was talking about the Oscars. I watched them he he did not like Hamnet. That was actually really funny. Um but he like okay, like him, like he like Dan, yeah. Like he's the kind of person who's like he's more like a general audience guy, but he loves sinners. So it's like, yeah, like yeah, um, everyone loves sinners from what I've seen.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

I I actually will call a little bit of bullshit. I do think I will go against the grain sometimes. Like, I just I the secret agent, I'm sorry, I just couldn't get behind that. Like uh I'm yeah, like three elements.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

You have a tiny little brain and don't know how to put it.

SPEAKER_00 6:51

I'm I'm sorry. Justice for it was just an accident because I actually thought that was a much superior movie to the secret agent.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

The the Brazilian army, man, is is like they stand for I just was like sometimes these nearly and I'm just like actually I actually have become a bit of a fan of Clebbers because I've seen like three of his movies now and I liked all of them. Um so I will defend the secret agent. I think it's a very good movie. Um someone, I mean, it's it's just a minor, but like as someone who's like had a tiny degree of training in the in the craft of being a historian, I think it's just like a very interesting film with the way that it like analyzes and considers the past and brings it to the screen. This is like a theme across like a lot of his works, um, particularly the documentary that he made in 2023 called Pictures of Ghosts, which I absolutely adored. I remember. Um so uh yeah, I will defend the secret agent. I think Wagner is good in it, and I would not be upset if it gets a surprise when not a surprise, it's it's number two, it's a close number two, an international feature. Um, yeah, it's it's it's duking it out with sentimental value, so we'll have to see how that goes.

SPEAKER_00 8:05

Well, the correct answer is going to be F1 is going to sweep. I like how everybody is like, why is F1 nominated?

SPEAKER_01 8:14

F1's in picture, dude.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

We needed we needed a blockbuster, other than it's probably winning sound, I won't lie.

SPEAKER_02 8:23

Yeah, which actually groom and loud, yeah, yeah. That's actually like actually like if you if you want to like predict like best sound or like who's gonna get nominated for best sound, just look at like the popular movies that have cars in them. And that's like a usually a pretty good indicator. Because like it's like a little reductive, but it is true. Like, like, like, yeah, like that's so thing, but like it is actually like a hard thing in a movie to like make that work correctly, you know what I'm saying? And sound like believable, you know, you know, you know.

SPEAKER_04 8:50

Yeah, for sure. Um, what about the highly acclaimed movie Cars? Hello. There's some good car sounds in that one.

SPEAKER_02 8:56

Cars, dude.

SPEAKER_04 8:57

There's some good there's some good car noises in that one, let me tell you.

SPEAKER_02 9:01

Car noises, explosions, and gunshots are usually like very big draws for like soon.

SPEAKER_04 9:07

Cars 2 has all of that, Remington. Remember when it became a international spythrower for no reason. Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

Anyway. Well, that's the Oscar talk, folks. Hopefully, this episode should be out before Sunday. But uh anyway, welcome to Eyes Wide Watch Club. I'm sick, we're back, it's okay, it's getting warmer out, and it is March, and this month it was Remington's Pick, folks. Uh, so Remington, why don't you introduce the movie that you recommended and tell us what you thought about it?

SPEAKER_02 9:44

Yeah, so I picked The Thin Blue Line, directed by the great Errol Morris. Um I wanted to, since we hadn't done a documentary before, I wanted to bring that to everyone's attention and thought that we could have a good discussion around it. Um I picked this one particularly um because A, I've seen not all, but a good chunk of his movies, um, and I think they're interesting. He's definitely considered like one of the best to have ever done it. And B, particularly this one, um, if you look at like like rankings of like best documentaries of all time, this one usually ranks pretty highly um for reasons that were probably apparent to you, no matter what your estimation of the film was after you saw it, but like you could probably see why this isn't this is like well regarded. Um reasons we're gonna get into. Um so yeah, I just figured this was a good one to go from. I only knew like a little bit about it going in. Um but yeah, I wanted to I wanted to check that out and you know get into the the case of uh one Mr. Bloom.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

So so what what do we th what do we think about this?

SPEAKER_05 11:07

You go first, Gene.

SPEAKER_04 11:09

Okay, Dan, what's that poster behind you? I can't tell from the massive glare. God damn it, he knows I'm self-conscious of that.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

I finally filled up my background with my pulp fiction poster, and it's just it's just what it is.

SPEAKER_04 11:27

And I I like since I know what it is, I can make it out.

SPEAKER_02 11:31

But um I don't know, I and I don't know what it is, so I'm just imagining.

SPEAKER_04 11:36

He said what it is too, so that's the best part about it to me. Um Dan, you go first. Mine I go upstairs.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

Um anyway, yeah. Uh so yeah, I wasn't familiar with any of this guy's other work. Uh, and I certainly don't watch nearly enough documentaries, I feel like. Uh I feel like these days, when I think of modern documentaries, I think of you know the the standard Netflix kind of style of documentary, even though I will say I do think HBO has a lot of great work. I just am very under underversed in documentary features, uh, which I which I want to change. I want to see more of them. But so yeah, um I enjoyed this. Uh I thought it was good. Um, I thought the story was really interesting. I really appreciate the way information was revealed and the story plays out. Uh I I guess I don't know. Um what I'm assuming I was reading a little bit about it. I'm guessing this was very innovative at the time uh because I feel like was this the first documentary to really utilize like reenactment? Is that part of it?

SPEAKER_04 12:52

I read up Remington, I read about this. Okay, true. Some some people will say that it is, but it's not true. Apparently it's like a thing where some people will just try to say and I credit um what the director, uh what's his name again? Um Errol Morris was like inventing that, I guess, but like it's it's not true to my understanding. I don't know what other documentaries do it, but he certainly seems to have popularized it at least.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

I actually uh it was funny. I I remember Remington, you mentioned that it was, you know, uh and maybe it was like one of the more first, like maybe not the first, but one of the more higher profile movies to kind of popularize this the style, maybe. But um when you said it it incorporates a lot of, you know, it's a it was big for like the reenactments that it did. I kind of was a little skeptical at first because I typically do not like reenactments and documentaries. I find it to be very distracting. And I think to myself, just at that I've seen I I remember maybe like in the cable era when we were growing up, like History Channel maybe style, a lot of like documentaries that would do reenactments, especially where you have an actor basically giving a full-on performance in a reenactment in between the talking head stuff. I always felt that to be very jarring and to the point where it just at that point just make a feature film. But I'm glad that the reenactments just mainly acted as a visual representation. Um and it wasn't too much like you know, we weren't seeing full dialogue, scripted dialogue scenes. So I was I was happy of that because I think I don't I I don't know why that I don't like that style, preferably, but uh yeah, um it was it was good. It was a little I was trying to I I had a little bit of trouble following the story in the first half hour because they didn't I thought it was an interesting choice that they didn't have any like name title cards um going but then I kind of realized that the guy's name that we first introduced had his name on his shirt, Adams. Um so I was able to kind of piece together a lot more. Like it came together pretty quickly, but in the beginning I was just kind of like, wait a minute, who's this guy? Who's this guy? But I kind of almost like that as a choice. Uh Dan, they're in prison, their names are right there. No, that's what I was saying. The one guy was, yeah, yeah, yeah. But um, but yeah, I mean, I don't know. I guess it wasn't the most mind-blowing documentary ever, but the ending was definitely really good, and I liked, like I said, I liked the way information was revealed. I I just I don't know, maybe I feel like uh I'm vibing this really hard, but I feel like there's a lot of documentaries that have stories like this, maybe these days. Maybe it just so I don't know, maybe at the I at the time you had to have been there kind of thing. I still think it's really, really good. I guess towards the end, I was a little skeptical as to why it is so highly as as regarded as it is, you know. I mean, it's still very good, but um, but yeah, uh, and I also really, really love the score from Philip Glass. This had this score did not need to be as good as it was. Um, the score was really good. So yeah, no, but I'm I'm I'm very positive on it. So yeah, I just I guess I'm just I'm a little questioning of of of why it it is so highly as regarded as it is, but I don't know, maybe like again, I'm admitting that I don't watch a lot of documentaries, so uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:13

But Janie, you want to give your thoughts first before I jump in?

SPEAKER_04 16:18

I can't believe Remington maybe watch a movie where it's two hours of people talking to a camera. Uh no, I'm kidding. Uh no, that was actually I really enjoyed that. Wait, so damn ways, did you did you enjoy it? Because like you said you're questioning like why it's well regarded, but did you enjoy it?

SPEAKER_00 16:31

I thought it was a very solid, good documentary with a very good story. I just am a little perplexed at at what at what what what is so unique about this documentary? Like is that is the st is the story really that mind? I just as someone that doesn't really watch a lot of documentaries, I I kind of am thinking, is was the story really that mind-blowing? Or I I don't know. I feel like there's been other stuff like that.

SPEAKER_04 16:55

I think Remington probably has the answer to that, but before he does answer it, let me give my reason as to watch like my crack at it uh to answer Dan's question. Um no, I really enjoyed that, uh, Remington. That's actually a really great pick. Um I am I'm not familiar with the case, which is a little surprising to me because I'm assuming it's a very uh popular case and like well-known case. Um especially I read about kind of how this movie ended up getting uh you know the the wrongful conviction, you know, overturned, right? Um so it's like a nice it's a it's a nice little it's a it's a happy ending, right? Which does not happen often in um these uh death penalty cases, as you know, especially in Texas. Um they're very with their uh punishments. Um so I I quite enjoyed that. And I'm not like a I'm not like a true I feel like I like true crime, right? But like I feel weird saying that because it's become such a like a white woman podcast thing. But like, no, like I'm I I'm interested in like the law. Yeah, I'm interested in the law.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

This is how we announced we're pivoting the podcast. We are now a true crime podcast.

SPEAKER_04 18:01

Um well, like you know what it is. I um I don't I don't I don't engage in speculation, I don't engage in those podcasts where like we're gonna try to figure it out, right? Like, I don't care for that. I'm here for the facts. I want to know what are the details of the story, and then like, you know, I'm not I'm not listening to a podcast where it's like these two wine moms or two dorks in their basement who were like these cops are so inept and we're gonna solve it. Like, no, I just want to hear the facts. So I listened to um I think it's called Criminology. They did an episode on uh Guth uh Guthrie, the the like the the you know the the woman who was kidnapped at her home, I mean something I'm talking about. She's the mother of the yeah, because I I had no idea what happened, so I'm like, I want to listen to a podcast about this while I'm at work, but I don't again I don't I don't I don't want to I don't engage in speculative bullshit fiction, you know, I'm just here for the facts. And I found it a really good one. And so I like I love that kind of stuff. At the same time, like I mentioned to you guys, I've been reading uh The Devil and Sherlock Holmes, which is a bunch of it's a collection of essays by David Grant, who's a writer for the New Yorker, and he wrote uh Killers of the Flower Moon, as you guys know. I both I really enjoyed that uh that book. Um so so when I'm when I'm when I'm watching this, I'm like, ah yes, another case of a wrongfully convicted man sentenced to death in Texas. And then when they mentioned the guy, the Dr. Death die, I'm like, oh shit, this is the same thing as the other case that from the book I just read. Um so like that from that moment I like locked in more. Um but I I I really love this kind of stuff, and I'm also very interested in, I'm sure Remington is too, with the considering, you know, you wanted to go to law school and stuff. Um, like it's it's I find it very fascinating, just like how fickle these convictions can be and the law, and just like you know, and you have all these like police at play where to them it's like we just want to solve a crime and be seen as the good guys versus actually trying to find the correct criminal, right? Um, so this was this was right up my alley. I really enjoyed this. And um I'm also not very well versed in documentaries, but I found it very interesting how like the few documentaries I've seen in the modern day, they they they they kind of since it's like a visual medium, I feel like they try a little harder to like engage that visual audience with a little more spectacle, a little more reenactment. I was very surprised by how much of this is just people talking to you into a camera and giving you like information, right? Um, and interviews and their like you know, their recollections of these events and how they feel about what went down. And you know, there's the reenactment part, and then you know it's cutting with like the newspaper articles and stuff, or like some supplementary. It's you know because you still need some visual guidance, but I really enjoyed how like it's not trying to be like flashy, I must keep TikTok brain engaged. Like I really enjoyed how it's like, no, we're gonna talk, you know, we're interviewing these people, you're hearing their stories, their testimonies, their thoughts on this. So to me, it's kind of like a podcast. I'm not gonna lie, I I listened to I I mostly listened to this movie at work, like a podcast, and it worked really well for me. Um, because I I'm not gonna lie, I find some find uh finding it hard to find time to watch it, and I was like, wait a minute, it's a fucking documentary, I can just listen to it. So I did. Um landing. I did watch it, but like I was also at work. I listen, I've had I've had a week, I'll come into you guys later. Um, okay, so um, but yeah, I actually was very uh happy to have watched this. Um I was curious if this coined the term thin blue line, but I read that there is a movie from the 60s also called thin blue line. So I I just wasn't sure. I see you shaking it.

SPEAKER_02 21:36

No, it it didn't coin the term thin blue line. And in fact, in the movie you can hear why it's called thin blue line because No, I know.

SPEAKER_04 21:43

I I was curious at that. Yeah, I I I didn't know if that's because that guy just like thought of that, or if it was just like what was a well known cop thing even back then.

SPEAKER_02 21:51

Yeah, the the judge was saying, oh, the prosecutor made a speech where he talked about the thin blue line, and because that concept resonated. With Morris, that's why he named the movie the way it did. Um, but like that would suggest to you that this is a pre-existing idea. It was it wasn't like a thing that Morris like no, I know going into it.

SPEAKER_04 22:10

I was I was like, I was like, when you first mentioned, when you first when you first suggested when you picked the movie last month, I thought like, wait, is this oh is that where the term comes from? It's not, obviously. And then I looked it up, and like I guess there's a movie in the 60s. Are you familiar with that movie in the 60s? Called Thin Blue Line?

SPEAKER_02 22:23

No, no, I I'm not, no.

SPEAKER_04 22:25

Yeah, so 1966, it's it's also called The Thin Blue Line, but I I don't know much about it either.

SPEAKER_02 22:30

Um, but yeah, no, so so um it's actually funny that you were talking about it as like lacking um flash, um, because uh part of the reason why this this movie is so remarkable is while in 2025, 2026, I should say, we were in 2026, we are in 2026. Um in 2026, in a time when we are, you know, awash in true crime ducks, when we are awash in brain rot, you know, this this might not seem readily uh apparent as to why it is special, but in 1988, when this came out, um no one had had really seen something like this before. You know what I'm saying? Like, like, like this, uh at that time and even for many years afterwards, like if if you're talking about a documentary, to most people, it's either like an impenetrable, like experimental avant-garde experience, or it's just a nature doc.

SPEAKER_05 23:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

Right? Like those are the those are the two options in like most people's minds with a documentary. No one thought of a documentary as something that is accessible, that is cinematic, right? It's cinematic in how it chooses to display the documents that it that it shows. It's cinematic in its use of the reenactments, um, and the way that he chooses to frame the camera when he's when he's interviewing the subjects. Um and that, you know, you know, was wasn't about like cute animals, you know, you know, wasn't wasn't doing something that that was like was like feel good. It was interesting, it was gripping at stakes, right? Um, and so in this way, um, and this this format, this model, it's kind of the great granddaddy for um a lot of like the quote unquote golden age of documentary that we currently live in and have been living in for like the last like like 15 or 16 years or so, um that's been going on because there because there wasn't a movie like this that was like, oh, there's a case, and we think there's something questionable about this case. So we're raising doubt and potentially even advancing an alternative theory. And the e in and at the very last minute we managed to score that sort of like golden egg interview where it's like we got our man, and then we can put it out there, and then there's direct real-world consequence impact as a result of this documentary that it wound up um getting this man out of jail eventually. Um, and so um that had never happened before. And so in this way, it was you know, very early on recognized as a momentous film. Um, and that is why we're we're talking about it today. Um, so yeah, we can maybe get into the events of the film, uh, talk about a bit about that, and then we can talk about more about like our relationship with documentaries and um perhaps even true crime documentaries, even more specifically as we go along. But since you you two had touched upon it, I I would encourage you both, if you like this, to not just not even just necessarily true crime document, but like watch more documentaries. Um a highlight of my year every year is um you know, you know, when when more documentary films come out, start coming out, um, and getting able to being able to go and check them out. Um, like I said, I think that's where the real filmmaking happens. Like, like some really good editing, some some really like impactful stuff, you know, some really good directing. Like, like it's really hard to make a documentary. It's really hard to to like get all that footage, kind of make it engaging a thesis and edit it. You know, you know, you know, you know, it's it's really hard to do and and like come up with something that's like presentable in the end. Um so always always a treat to to see like really good, commendable uh documentaries, and I can come up with some recommendations for you both after we're done um for you guys to check out. But yeah, um do we want to talk more about the um the film itself, like what what's what how how things play out and such?

SPEAKER_05 26:36

Nah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 26:38

Okay, all right, so I wait, just to wait, okay, so this was what I was wondering because and you guys just were saying it, but at the end when the text came up and it said that Adams was currently on death row and the other guy was serving a life sentence for the other thing, I thought to myself, wait a minute, he's still in fucking prison? And I tried to look it up, but the film got him out.

SPEAKER_04 27:05

Basically led to him getting out, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:08

Oh yeah, like a year, like a year after the film released. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:11

Six months later, dude, from my look when I read. I was reading yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:17

I think it was in 89 when he was released. I want to say the film came out in 88.

SPEAKER_04 27:22

He served 12 years not that much because there was a note that that the state of Texas did not compensate him whatsoever for the time he served.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

Yeah, that's true. I did read that.

SPEAKER_04 27:31

Yeah, but he did still spend 12 years in prison. But yes, uh Dan, he got he got out um basically as a result of this movie, and he passed away in 2010 from a brain tumor or something, um, but he was able to live his life uh you know for like 20 years after.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

No, I mean, yeah, that definitely that definitely puts it more into perspective for me. Uh that's incredible. Yeah, I uh I guess I was like watching it thinking, yeah, wait, what is the evidence they have on this guy? This was it meant were we meant to believe that he was innocent pretty much from the jump?

SPEAKER_04 28:06

I mean they straight up say that they didn't want to convict the kid. Like they basically say that. This kid who his friends were all like, yeah, man, he came, he can't he came home and he's like, yo, I shot a pig, I killed him, like I did dash it.

SPEAKER_02 28:24

Found the murder weapon, like like he was like, Yeah, I have the gun, and the intent of the murder gun hit the gun. He hit the not only did he have the murder weapon, he hit it.

SPEAKER_04 28:32

Yeah, that's what it was like and the cops are like, ah, he's just a kid, he's just he's just he's just trying to be tough. It was really the adult. Like, it's I mean, come on, dude.

SPEAKER_02 28:42

The unfortunate part of it is that people find Harris charming, right? And like you can even kind of get that when you're watching the interview that he does he does have a certain amount of charm to him, and the fact that he's and I'm looking at him like this as a social, but you can see in his eyes, like, come on.

SPEAKER_04 29:00

I found him like I found him very unnerving in a lot of ways.

SPEAKER_00 29:03

This is also in a time where like you like you kept meant, and I think I I think you're completely correct, Remington, is like at the time this was very revolutionary, or in in a way, uh, because we we are having that familiarity with so much experience with true crime stuff and seeing these killers that seem totally normal, you know, your Ted Bundies, these people that are so charming, and but you would never know that they're like we we're we're so much more attuned to that. We're back in the 80s they weren't you know bombarding.

SPEAKER_04 29:34

Well, I mean even even at the moment you said it people did find him charming, right? Like uh is it the the the lawyer prosecutor? He's even saying, like in my in all my interactions with him, it's always yes sir, no sir. He's always very been very kind to me, you know, and he he spoke him in a way like every time he'd hear about this kid getting in trouble, he was kind of like, you know, he could just never he could never get straight. Like like he just has this, like, you know, that he was just viewed as that. Like, oh, he's just a misguided kid, he needs to just turn his life around, he's you know he's nice to be he's respectful.

SPEAKER_02 30:03

He's from that area, yeah. Right, and that's like a big part of it because because Adams um is uh he was a drifter. He was a drifter, and and uh police always, always have a bias against people who are perceived as vagrants, right? And they felt that he was a vagrant, and so it was very easy in their from their priors, you know, it was very easy for them to be like, oh, of course he would do it, right? Not not the kid that we like, right? Who's from here?

SPEAKER_04 30:31

Like a homegrown, like good old country boy, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 30:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 30:35

Yeah, exactly. Um, no, and I know I noticed that too, they kept mentioning him as a just like a hitchhiker. It's like, yeah, but like some out of towner, he's a vagrant, like you're saying. And you know, it's it's still like the 70s, Dan, you know, like it's right, you know, it's a different time. And they even kind of talk about a little bit too, um the Millers, right? They were interracial relationships back then, right? And they kind of that comes across a little bit how they there's like a perceived prejudice against the husband, uh, or the I don't remember the husband, but he's uh you know, he's like the partner, he's a black man named a white woman. There's and he even says, like, he even says too, like, uh what was it? Because they they they they they they saw the the the the pullover and he says like you know this area is not exactly the safest. He's like so seeing two white white men in this part of town alone was like out of the ordinary.

SPEAKER_02 31:23

Um you do remember that like he and his then girlfriend at the time, the white lady, they were they were lying, right? They were, no, they were. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 31:31

No, but I do think there's some truth to that too. It's totally saying like um like I do like you know, while I I do think there's some truth to like why would they be in this part of town, especially back then? Like you still have your pockets, like you know, the segregation's not like legal anymore, but you still you know you're hanging out your community.

SPEAKER_00 31:47

Um that's what's that was uh that was so crazy to me too, because they even bring up like you know the race elements and stuff like that, and I'm watching the movie, I'm like it was really that bad because they just were like, Well, this guy's not from here. Like, if this guy's skin was a shade darker, he was pale white. I'm like, this guy would have been in the chair in five minutes.

SPEAKER_02 32:14

I was like, You remember when the defense attorney was like, Yeah, I went to Vido, Texas, and that's the clan capital of Texas, and they like and like Mars cuts like that photo of like everyone in the clan garb.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

Yeah, like holy god man, like just the just the like uh the this guy, this guy's got uh got better vibes, you're fine, and he's 16, like you know, ah you should it was it yeah, it was crazy to me because that that was one of the things I was kind of trying to get a grip on the story a little bit as it moved along from the beginning of I kept thinking to myself, wait a minute, this guy's clearly innocent, and it was clearly the kid. Like, is there gonna be a what is the shoe that's gonna drop here? Like, but yeah, yeah, it turns out to me.

SPEAKER_04 33:01

Like, um uh so who was the one who was convicted? What's his name, Remington? Adams. Adams, yeah. I I how he explained it, he's just like, you know, the thing about Harris's statements is everything he was saying was two hours late to when they actually occurred. I found that very interesting. Yeah, that consistent detail. And then later on, you can tell too, like when Adams is speaking, I'm like, oh, this guy doesn't have the guy doesn't have a good sense of time whatsoever.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

Like in the things what's happening with that is the prosecutors are telling Harris what to say. We find that out at the end, right? That Harris was like, Yeah, I was kind of just agree. I was I was a scared kid, I would just agree to whatever, so I didn't have to do any jail time. And so the prosecutors basically gave him a timeline, which even though it doesn't actually match what the real facts are, it was a timeline that they could sell when they put him on the stand essentially to the jury.

SPEAKER_04 33:52

Yeah. Um this is a very interesting detail how that all worked out. Um especially considering that they're showing you, like you know, they're saying they came to this movie and say he's explaining what kind of movie it was. We have the records of that, right? We have the records of okay, yeah, this movie played at this place that they said they went to at this exact time. We we know that that's that that's that's that's it that's an irrefutable fact, right? And you can use that alone to start getting your timeline right. It didn't fucking matter. You know? Um, it's uh it's it's it's a very like picture of the times, right? Um, you know, late 70s and like the way um I mean, again, it might have been a trial by fire too, when um uh Willingham was wrongfully convicted of you know murder uh of murder of his three children. You know, he talks about in this in in his interview, he's like, you know, the minute you walk in you walk into the station because they detained you, they put a paper in front of you, like, all right, you sign this paper, you know, we'll make it easier on you, just sign and say you're guilty. And it's the first thing you see in this movie, right? He's he said that you know he pulls the gun out and he's like, Oh, can you he's trying to he's trying to go in without picking the gun up. And I'm just like, okay, that's a fun way to get someone's prints all over the weapon. Uh and then he says, like, you know, like he pulls as his service weapon and like points it at me like they're just trying to threaten you, like, and I fully believe that. I don't I don't see I don't think you had a reason to lie about that. And it's um it's a different time, right? I mean that's I I'm not gonna happen anymore, but it's just it it's it's a good view into just police practice, and especially like you're not you're not really caring about something in the disadvantage jail, you just want to look good as a cop, look good as an agency, as a state, right? You're trying to have the justice system look good and like like like like they get the job done. Yeah, it's scary.

SPEAKER_02 35:39

Also, it highlights not even just like like like reputation career reputation stuff, it highlights how a lot of this was driven initially by like police biases, right? So like we think we think that Harris is charming, so we like him and we want to see the best in him. But when we were talking to Adams, like, oh, he's cold, he's he doesn't show any remorse, no emotion. And of course you wouldn't if like you didn't actually do it and are just confused the whole time and getting like defensive that like people are accusing you of things that you didn't do, especially since you're getting arrested after you were like out on a bender and just like in your room chilling, you know, you know what I'm saying? Like um, so they're how their biases are causing them to interpret things, you know, you know, and that's what's driving motivate driving their motivation in like everything that they choose to do.

SPEAKER_04 36:35

I mean, even the way that they they like so I I was actually very like struck by um because you know we see we see um Adams like you know when at the time of interview, right? He's clean shaven, nice haircut. When they showed the picture of him back then, I'm like, oh shit, that's a very different looking man, like with a big old fishy hair, like he looks like a vagrant, right? And then they're showing you pictures of Harris. He's just like a clean cut, just he's he's a kid, right? And he looks like a kid, he looks very young, very fair faced. You know, that that has a lot to do with it as well, right? Especially when you can see that guy looks that guy looks that guy looks shoddy. He has thick hair, look at his crazy hair. Like he's not someone that who you would trust. He he's not a member of society, right? Um and uh like I I truly like when they showed that I had to pause it and I was like, that's the same fucking man, no way.

SPEAKER_00 37:21

Yeah, that got me too. That got me too. I thought to myself, ooh, yeah, he looks much more sketchy in those photos, but well, I was like, I didn't think it was sketchy.

SPEAKER_04 37:29

I was like, oh, I was like, I was like, oh shit, like yeah, like he was like a yeah, but like I was because they kept saying the bushy hair, and I'm like, what do they mean by that? And then they show you it. I was like, oh shit, okay, that's what they mean.

SPEAKER_02 37:42

Yeah, because he was like a dude in the 70s then, and then in the interview, he's still in prison, you know. So like he's he he he has he's he's in his one place, he's not drifting anymore, and he probably has to maintain a certain amount of comportment based on whatever the code is.

SPEAKER_04 37:59

He's also older, you know, he's just an older man. You grow up, you mature, right?

SPEAKER_02 38:03

You might just be like so he's gonna participate in a documentary voluntarily, so they might so they might very well have had people who styled him for for the interview, you know. So I thought about that.

SPEAKER_04 38:12

Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, even Harris too, like his hair was kind of like slick back, it was kind of cool, not gonna lie. Um, you know, like noticeably older too, but like if the the the cool the slick back here does have like the cool charm of him, right? The way he carries himself is kind of confident in a way. Um, well, I don't think Harris was unconfident. Like Harris is just like a regular dude, right? He seems just like a pretty like I'm just wrapped up in this bullshit kind of guy.

SPEAKER_00 38:37

Um Harris was much more like nonchalant, like, yeah, I guess this is what it is, and you know, and Adam seemed much more yeah, like put together. Uh did you guys pick up on like pretty quickly of of when they were doing the interviews? I was like, oh wait a minute, both of these guys are in jumpsuits, like both of them are in prison. Like what's what's going on here? I was like, Yeah, yeah, like what happened? Both of these guys appeared to be incarcerated. I'm I'm confused, but yeah, so well that's a hint from the start, right?

SPEAKER_04 39:13

Because you um what is it? The the the the psychiatrist, he's like a psychologist, he he spoke to to to Adams for 15 minutes, not even. And then he had a two-hour testimony, which is like okay, buddy. Um that's that's the kicker, Dan, right? Like you you learn that he's he spent two hours testifying of like this man. If he goes out there, he's gonna go on a murder spree and devastate Dallas. And then the actual killer went ahead and went and killed another man, right? Convicted other multiple crimes. He did become a menace to society, but like, you know, it's it's it's it's all it's all scam, as you say, Dan. It was a scam from the start, right? And uh, you know, the police are bringing in their guy, they brought him a hypnotist, that was so fucking funny. Like, it's uh it's another thing too. I don't think uh uh I feel like it touched upon this a little bit, Remington, but like you know, when you bring in like hypnotism and lie detectors and all these like pseudoscience things, but you're using courts we have to need a psychic to help us with the case. Yeah, like I'm always like I it always blows my mind how like that's like a I don't know. Do you still do that?

SPEAKER_02 40:20

Like you still use like lie detector tests and like in court, like I don't know, like they're not admissible in court, but uh many many um law enforcement agencies, um, even the CIA like like place like a lot of like personal faith in it, yeah, um, even though it is not admissible in court, and they will and they will they will use it to make like um charging decisions essentially. Uh, but it's not admissible in court and of itself. And typically, um, it depends on what the defense attorney's read is. Sometimes they'll have their clients consent to it just so like because they know they're gonna pass, and then it's just like a thing they can use when they're arguing and negotiating later to be like, hey, my boy beat your thing, right? You know, um, so but yeah, they're not admissible in court because they are unreliable.

SPEAKER_04 41:05

Um in the case of Willingham in the 90s, like they use Ladsector on him, and like and like they they they again, like yeah, the prosecution used that as well. Like, see, he faltered on this, and it's like that's not this is this this is all just mumbo jumbo pseudoscience.

SPEAKER_02 41:20

They they produce false positives and false negatives all the time. They can be beat, and there is no um, there's you don't need a license to be to be a professional polyg uh polygrapher, there's no like professional association you like the bar association, there's no equivalent or you know or the aim, there's no equivalent to be a polygrapher.

SPEAKER_04 41:38

There's no yeah, there's there's no kind of regulatory body in any kind of way.

SPEAKER_02 41:41

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So anyone can do it. So any so that means there's no consistency also in how the results are being interpreted, you know. So it's it's very it's very unreliable.

SPEAKER_04 41:50

I can launch a career, and this is what you're saying.

SPEAKER_02 41:52

Yeah, do it, dude.

SPEAKER_04 41:54

Yeah, it's a fucking weed. So many people in prison. Uh uh. But like I'm not gonna tissue actually made me laugh. Like, I audibly laughed at that.

SPEAKER_00 42:07

They cut to just showing uh uh the watch swing. I started I I kind of chuckled too.

SPEAKER_04 42:14

It's just like it's just it's just funny when you hear those things. It's like, okay, we might as well, you know, let's ask the ghost that never lies. We're just bullshitting.

SPEAKER_00 42:23

Let's let's let's do tarot cards, you know. Oh god.

SPEAKER_02 42:30

What are star signs?

SPEAKER_04 42:33

Ooh, you're a you're a this rising? Ooh, that might mean you're a murderer. I don't know. I feel like that because you're on that.

SPEAKER_00 42:40

I was don't know about that one, Chief. I was waiting for the point, which never happened. I was surprised. I mean, I guess I'm not surprised in hindsight, but I was waiting for the point that they would have interviewed the other officer that was there that night. Uh waiting for that too. Like in real life, but I guess they never they probably didn't agree to be part of it, which I guess. She might have declined. Yeah. She might have declined. But I was waiting for that, but it would never happen.

SPEAKER_04 43:08

I I felt like a part of it uh when they were explaining how like, you know, procedure, uh protocol, like you know, when her her partner gets shot, she was supposed to radio in like an ambulance, but she didn't, right? I got the feeling they were just kind of like Steve, she wasn't a woman, she would have followed the protocol.

SPEAKER_02 43:26

Like what was being implied there. That was the subtext of what they were saying. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 43:31

I'm so glad you brought that up. Yeah, I totally forgot about that. I remember thinking the same thing. Like, they are heavily implying that.

SPEAKER_02 43:38

Yeah, because one guy goes out of his brain to be like one guy built out of switch by five, and she was the first woman to be hired by a department, and then he proceeds to tell all of us that she screwed up. And it's just like you can put two and two together, buddy. We know what you mean when you're saying that.

SPEAKER_04 43:54

Like he's like, Her first mistake was being born a woman. I don't have to tell you that's

SPEAKER_02 44:00

Second X chromosome, it's a killer until we're gonna do it.

SPEAKER_04 44:02

Like the cops, sorry, to get in the kitchen. Oh man, that was like I'm watching this and I was like, is this motherfucker for you? That's insane.

SPEAKER_00 44:11

Nudging, nudging the audience until their ribs crack.

SPEAKER_02 44:15

Like so that's the thing. Um, like, yeah, it probably would have been cool to like have her speak. There probably would have been value in that. But what Morris is able to show us is that it's it's it's almost okay that that she didn't, because you have enough, which is that even by her own colleagues' admission, the people who are supposed to be like backing up her side of things and her version of things, um, to like advance what they believe is true, which is that they found the right guy and that he ultimately the correct decision was to put him in jail. Even they're kind of like, yeah, she didn't take down the license play, and maybe if she had acted sooner, the guy wouldn't have died, and she didn't really correctly name the the like what the vehicle's make and model was, right? All these important things, which is kind of what we need to hear to start like questioning this, this, this case, right? And they're even they are willing to admit, yeah, we didn't have very much in the beginning. We're just kind of we're turned out we were looking for the wrong car the whole time, you know, you know, based on what she told us. Um so yeah, it is it is it is interesting the things that you get through the art of the interview, you know.

SPEAKER_00 45:18

Yeah. Yeah. What uh what did you guys think about uh or yeah, because I like I mentioned my whole feeling on reenactments, and like I said, I actually really enjoyed the inclusion of these of these reenactments because I just feel like they were a good uh like I said before, a good visual tool, and it wasn't like and it wasn't like we were getting like full dialogue scenes. Um for the tower. But what did you guys think of like the okay, okay, it's okay. Like the reenactments.

SPEAKER_04 45:53

Uh it's okay, it's okay. Um you guys want to, okay?

SPEAKER_02 45:57

Yeah, it's okay, Maya. Um, as far as the uh reenactments are concerned, I I I you know is your book bag over there? We'll check when I was a boy, yes. Um, I also definitely when I thought of reenactments associations with the same type of like trashy history channel television specials, that that that kind of thing. Um, however, since I am now a man um I who has seen um you know many, many documentaries, I've also seen it to where it can be effective. Um, it definitely wouldn't be like my go-to choice if I would in like a documentary I was trying to see if where I was one day to make a documentary, it's not a thing that I would necessarily roach for. Um, and definitely like you've seen uh feature films who have employed um reenactments and it's been considered um questionable one way or the other. Um, but I think kind of like what you're saying, it doesn't really subtract in this case, it doesn't really subtract from the film in any way just because of how minimal it is, you know. And in some ways, I kind of almost get like why he chose to do this because if he didn't, right, it would just it would just be people talking and like going back and forth, and you can do that, but you kind of almost wanted to add something, and it seems almost like a natural evolution of a um previous technique in documentaries, which is just like voiceovers over various images, you know. So now you're doing voiceovers over yeah, voiceover instead of just doing voiceovers over the reenactment. So it's actually the subject who was there and witnessed it, who's like speaking about it, and his words are providing context to the little brief little reenactment that you're saying. And so it is there because of the way that Morse chose to do this, it's the their words that are filling it up, the actual authentic organic thing, not the reenactment itself taking place, kind of like substituting what you don't have, right? That's why a lot of those like history channel, like ancient aliens bullshit kind of like fails because it's like they know they don't have anything, so they put these like reenactments in to make up for what they don't have. You know, that's why it's comes off as like like ch trashy and an authentic, you know. It's um so so that to me is like the difference there.

SPEAKER_00 48:18

Yeah. Yeah, it's like a it's like a visual a it's essentially the I like that the the reenactment just B-roll, like you know, that they're that they're doing.

SPEAKER_04 48:30

Uh based on the testimony too, it's just it's not like made up bullshit, like in a way where it's like we're just gonna give you a visual, we're just gonna visually show you what's being said, right? At least overplay it as.

SPEAKER_00 48:42

The the minute I I think you know what I'm getting at, Remington. Yeah, with the like I it's something about I'm thinking of not just History Channel, but I'm thinking of like cable, like cable era, like those TV documentaries where the minute that it feels like we're having full scripted scenes of characters giving like full perfor like actual acting performances, then I think like at that point, just do a narrative feature. Like I'm thinking of that that new fucking the what is that, that that AI Daronoff Aronofsky thing that's like all it's all rehaps. I'm just like, dude, just at that point, just make a feature film, like a narrative scripted film. I don't know. Uh but yeah, so I'm always I I as someone that did like, you know, like kind of film studies as things, like when I was learning uh, you know, premiere and stuff, I had to, I had to make like a little documentary student film. Um I had to make a narrative and I had to make a doc. And uh I remember learning about like especially like growing up, just out of my own curiosity on iMovie, like doing the Ken Burns of just you know, the image zooming in over someone talking, like a talking head. And I always I don't know, I like that. I like that style of of like I don't want to say minimalist. Like I it's also what eventually became video essays, right, on the internet.

SPEAKER_02 50:04

Uh well it's funny. Um, we were talking about like how the reenactments are kind of like it's constructed from the testimony, right? So sometimes it's not even just what actually happened, it's like what they believe happened, you know, and that's how you're seeing it. And to me, um, what that reminds me of as a potential thing that maybe was influenced by this, um, is did you guys ever watch CSI when you were growing up? No, not much, a bit. Um, one of CSI's trademarks is that since uh, you know, these are these are characters in law enforcement and they and their jobs in theory is that they follow the evidence and they build like a case based off what they find, um, much of what the show does visually is whenever they have a theory, you're often cutting to like a a like flash scene that kind of like visualizes that theory. So it's like, I think so-and-so did this, and then it cuts to a scene of that person going in and doing it, you know, you know, you know, you know, and that doesn't mean that's actually what happened, it's like their theory, um, but it kind of is like serving that similar um narrative function. Um, so that's that's what like comes to my mind as like maybe a direction that like this idea of this reenactment kind of went in entertainment as like a possible like branching um point. Um, and kind of also piggybacking off of what you were saying, Dan, um, you know, fun fact, in some way, in many ways, documentary cinema is like the oldest of the three branches of film. Um, because you know, a lot of what early film was, they were they were called actuality pictures, actuality films, where the most popular thing you could do, because you know they they weren't very long and you only had X amount of film, is to go around and just film what you saw. Right? So like it was very common just to like film dock workers or people going into a building or people walking down a street, uh the electrocution of Topsy the elephant, you know, you know, just like like uh birders. Yeah, so um like different little trip down Market Street, that's a very famous uh actuality film. Um, you know, you know, that's like a lot of what early filmmakers like the Lumiere brothers were were doing in like the 1890s and in the 1900s.

SPEAKER_04 52:25

Um we get to see, like we get to see this these visuals, like you can see what the life was like back then.

SPEAKER_02 52:32

So a trip down Market Street is super famous because that was filmed in 1905 on the Market Street in San Francisco, and then the following year there was the San Francisco earthquake, so that like annihilated that street, but that's when the film came out, and that's actually the last image that we have of what that street looked like before the earthquake. So that's that's like one of the big reasons why that is so remembered in our in in in popular consciousness. Um and so you know it is interesting to see the ways in which this has this medium has involved has evolved.

SPEAKER_00 53:09

Yeah, I uh yeah, and I'm not trying to be a douchebag about this, but like no, like when I was when I was in school and I was learning like editing programs and stuff, and I was doing all this as like a major, um, I don't know, I just grew such an appreciation for so much of uh like like when you watch um even for a movie, like a little uh you ever see like on YouTube those little like John Wick for featurette, you know, like those little 10-minute like where it's like people talking, they get essentially what used to be DVD bonus features. Um you know, like those little featurettes, like that's filmmaking. Like you there's an editor, there's a there's a story being told. Absolutely. Even when you watch, um I think about this all the time with editing, even when you watch uh like local news stories, like there's b-roll that someone had to shoot, there's voiceover that like someone had to edit that to run that on the nightly news. Uh what I what I think about a lot when it comes to this stuff is reality TV has some of the while it while reality TV is some of the most trashy things in our culture, I picture how dense the editing process in in these if you ever watch like just an episode of like Jersey Shore or something, the editing that must go into those shows and building an episode and building the story is must be so there must be and the mute the music cues that like the dramatic music cues that to go to like the tone setting in all of those episodes.

SPEAKER_02 54:48

My parents watch an ungodly amount of Food Network, you know, which of course is all reality TV in a sense, if you think about it. And so yeah, just think about how they're like in one of their competition shows, just think about like all the work that you have like hours and hours of raw footage that you then need to condense into a digestible like 30-minute block of television that tells a clear story of what happened in the competition that day. And the way that you do that is yes, music cues, yes, you have to find a way to stitch frame the like post-competition exit interviews so that they are broken up and then be those broken up pieces line up with the image that you're then seeing on the screen when when the when the you know the viewer is watching the competition in for them in real time. Um, so like just to like think through that process as it's going on, um, is probably incredible. And and then even to your example with reality television, that's probably even more complicated because at least in Food Network, it's like a staged competition with a clear beginning, middle, and end, and clear, like organized periods, whereas like reality TV, people are just like fucking around, you know, you know, you know, and you gotta capture that shit and then find a way to make it make sense in the edit.

SPEAKER_00 56:02

Yeah, it's uh yeah, I think about that all the time, and I just think of uh yeah, the amount of production that must like that must go into the post-production into that. And then I think like I just think of some guy that like you know went to film school studying Sidney Lamette and um Tarkovsky and all these and Bergman, and then he gets a job working for the housewives in the editing room. Dude, and I'm taking I'm I I will I will I will pat myself on the head right now. I'm I'm still to this day, I'm working on my uh my little uh documentary, my top 10 movies of 2024 that I'm that I'm almost done with, by the way. But even that is like 2024. It's been too I work a full-time job. I'm making a YMS style, you know, like full, it's like uh at an hour long now. But I'm like, I'm almost done with it. I've been I've been I took a long break from working on it, but uh but yeah, no, like just the amount of work that I'm doing into the basic thing like that. Um even even you can argue like vlogs, like I was just watching a YouTube video before we got on here where it's you know a person sitting at a desk at their computer, like we are, like telling a story and then putting B-roll over it absolutely related to the story, and then putting mute like that's that's editing. That's like a that's a an art form. So yeah, no, I do have a lot of appreciation for the medium, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:36

Absolutely. And in fact, uh one of the reasons why we not the probably not the chief reason, but a big reason why we are considered to live in a golden age of documentary is that um mediums like YouTube have made have they've democratized that branch of filmmaking for a lot of people, so you can have something like Defunct Land, someone like Defunct Land, who is putting out genuine, well-researched, well-made documentaries just on his YouTube channel, right? And you can do that, and that can be a person, and that can be a person's job, and you don't have to go through the rigmarole role of the film industry to to make your doc, essentially.

SPEAKER_04 58:16

What's her name? Uh the one who made the the four-hour Star Wars video about Jay Nicholson. Yeah, no, the Star Wars protocol.

SPEAKER_02 58:23

That's another one or the H. Brahmer guy video about the plagiarism amongst YouTubers. I would consider that to be like a a a bona fide documentary, right? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 58:33

No, absolutely, yeah. No, absolutely. Um I was thinking about that too. Like, I was like, oh shit, yeah, like YouTubers are just making documentaries all the time now. Because like like I watch plenty of YouTube videos where it's just someone like I'm gonna break this thing down that occurred, and it's like that's a documentary. It's like half an hour, sure. Oh wow. It's a four-hour video.

SPEAKER_02 58:56

Like, how long do you think that took her to make? Probably a long time, especially if you remember, like, she's cutting different costume changes. So it probably happened over the course of several days, and not in one second.

SPEAKER_04 59:10

And all she does is like once one a year because it's incredibly long and incredibly researched, and she gets millions of views because she's built up a reputation. It's insane.

unknown 59:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:21

I I I would argue, I guess, the only the only real I mean it's not a huge difference, but with a lot of these YouTube video like I would consider video essayists, all of these people we're talking about, definitely as they're they're creating documentaries. Uh however, you could argue that there is a lot of copyrighted content in these in these videos, but it's under fair use. Um, and obviously that's fair use law as a whole other thing to you know, sure, but like I don't think of that that's a detriment.

SPEAKER_04 59:50

You're still not gonna be able to do it.

SPEAKER_01 59:53

What yeah, bro doesn't think collage is an art form.

SPEAKER_04 59:57

Yeah, like like again, like like the funk land is a great example. It's like it's like you know, I mean, what is the documentary, right? You're you're basically examining something that happened, right? Yeah. You're telling a story of something that of an event that occurred, or you're documenting like real life, right? Using visual and audio. Yeah, the funk land is doing that. Like, hey, here's this thing that happened, and here's why I fell apart, right? And here's why I was ambitious, and here was the goal. Um, I mean, his Toys He did one on um the Toys of R Us, the huge one that was in uh in Manhattan, right? Yeah, yeah. Um I love that video. It's so fucking good. Um I mean that's what I'm also because I I I I have memories of goal I make fun memories of going on toys of us as a kid, so like that one that one hit.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:44

Um, that's that's what I've always wanted to do with my YouTube channel is make like mini documentaries. Well, Dan, quit your job.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:51

Yeah, um well Dan, um, you know, you know, you know, you're you're saying, well, there's all this like copyrighted material like like like sprinkled throughout in a lot of them. Well, in 2023, I saw a documentary at Film Forum uh called Hello Dankness. And uh just to just to like read you the description on Letterboxd real quick, comprised entirely of hundreds of pirated film samples. Hello Dankness is a bent suburban musical that bears witness to the psychotropic cultural spectacle of the period 2016 to 2021. Set in the American suburbs, the film follows a neighborhood through these years as consensus reality disintegrates into conspiracies and other political contagions, part political satire, part zombie stoner film, and Greek tragedy. The work also is informed by the encrypted mimetrics of contemporary internet culture. You know, so that's an example. Obviously, that's playing with form a bit, right? Because it includes some fictional elements, but ultimately that is a documentary about like how media changed and evolved for that time and how that kind of represents like the social ills that were developing during that five-year period. So it's kind of like what you do with the documents that are part of the documentary and how you play with them and how you interpret them.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:14

No, for sure. Yeah, and that's and I'm again, I I'm I'm just I'm just pointing out that like in a documentary, typically there's like a lot of original footage and there's not much like you know, but it's the same thing. I'm just I just I just wanted I just thought it was worth pointing out. Like fair use is a real thing, uh like transforming content. It's just an inter it's an interesting conversation that happens, especially on YouTube when it comes to like fair use and copyright and stuff. Uh what was I gonna say? Um Yeah, I you know it's funny. I was thinking about a lot of um there was I was going through all of the uh obviously all of the Oscar nominations this year, and there's the uh the best documentary feature and documentary short. Uh I guess one of I think it's the feature is going to be this this one, the front runner is this about the the kids' rooms of victims of school shooters. Do you know what I'm talking about, Remington?

SPEAKER_02 1:03:10

Oh, that's that's documentary short, but yes, I do know what you're talking about. That's all the empty rooms.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:14

Yeah, that's considered the front runner to win. Uh I do feel like, I mean, this is probably talking more in like the Oscar race um of it all, but I do feel like the medium nowadays, maybe not when it comes to like Netflix and HBO, but mainly like in the academy and stuff and prestigey, it feels like a lot of documentaries kind of have to be like driven by very strong social issues where I I do wish that that it didn't always have to be the case because I do think I did watch all of the shorts two years ago or one, like there's sometimes just shorts. I used to watch this in my in my film classes too, where there was just like there would be shorts of just documentary shorts, or I think there's one even this year that was being described to me. It's just one of like basically about donkeys and like the perspective of strangeness. Yeah, like that sounds really cool to me. Like, I wish everything didn't have to be about like it seems like there's a lot of um big documentaries now that are very there's one about the Alabama solution, I guess that's the feature, or something like that. Um, and I'm not taking anything away from it. I just wish that it just it does it feels like a lot of big prestigey documentaries now are much very focused on like big social political issues or just you know, justice for I just wish that didn't always have to be the case.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:38

Like what is the purpose of a documentary to you?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:41

To tell us what is the same thing as it's to tell the truth, it's too it's to reveal truth. And sometimes that truth can be small, right, by following two donkeys around, and perhaps maybe that reveals a metaphor about the human condition. But a lot of times, and for many people, particularly in you know, not so great times, that truth can be deeply felt and you know much richer and much deeper and more intense, right? Um, and often will be uh the ones that stand out to us are the ones that speak to the issues of our time and really that we feel might say it all, you know. So, like, for example, um my favorite documentary film uh from 2023 was a film called Occupied City. That was a documentary film made by Steve McQueen, the director of Twelve Years a Slave. Um, and in that film, essentially he took this book called Occupied City. That's it's like this um big like coffee table World War II history book um about the city. I want to say it was Amsterdam, but or maybe it was Copenhagen. I can't remember which. One of those cities. Um and essentially what the book does is it uh through photography documents um one. what spaces still exist in the city that were all of these very important and significant events that took place in the city during the during the run up to during the actual and just in the aftermath of World War II um various important events while um under occupation um and it like like this is what it was like then this is what it's like now what we have left of it and what McQueen does is he essentially he claims he shot the full book um but he had to condense it down and so it's like a four hour documentary um of like doing this but what he does is he takes it one step further in terms of like the like the now shots and he it's basically this one giant um contemplation of like how things have changed and how things are similar and what this kind of like says about this and not just the ebb and flow of history but like of the human condition more broadly and I just thought that was so interesting and profound and terrifying frankly about a lot of the implications about like the rise of fascism and stuff that was being um implied um that like you know more than medium can can do something that special you know what I mean and so to me like um I I just I just think that you that like I'm not I'm I'm not trying to like point fingers at you but like I I just I just I just think that that's a bit dismissive to me.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:33

Yeah no I get and no I understand why it's just I I I like I do enjoy both. I like I like um I think what was it a few years ago I just saw a um it was one of the documentary shorts nominated it was like it was pretty much just this guy I don't know maybe you saw it Remington but it was just this guy in a little cabin somewhere out in the middle of nowhere in like this winter like landscape off of like the the coast and he just like opens the door to his cabin and it's just like a a literal whole field beach filled with walruses in the yeah and it was like this little I it was pointing towards an issue about how this species was getting misplaced but like there was really no dialogue in it. It was just kind of follow I don't know I find that maybe more nature stuff or just anything and just small scale stories can also be done with documentaries and I just I I like those as well.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:26

I just think it could be so yeah no it's it just I think the the the medium can be has expanded can be expanded to a lot of different things um but we already talked about like vlogs yeah why not I mean geez um I'm just even I'm thinking back now even like series like the people versus Alex Jones uh you know um the Q anytime something happens Hulu will have a documentary of it that night I I think that's a big crazy how that happens do you think do you think it's because it's just trying to capitalize on moments and like it they're very cheap to produce yeah people watch that stuff dude like for sure like I learned a lot from my my mostly middle aged female coworkers they watch they just watch whatever's on TV also you know we live in a time where you know nostalgia is a market right and so you can do umpteen documentaries about let's look back at what terrible thing happened in 1999 you know you know what I mean um you can make those till the cows come home you know you know what I'm saying and get in on that cheap cheapness that sweet sweet nostalgia dollars you know in in you know um so uh like like I think one thing since this year actually like literally next month uh we're going to be getting uh Michael will be coming out uh that's the that's the Michael Jackson uh biopic I think that will naturally invite Andy's gonna be excited for um I think that will naturally invite a lot of revisiting of if you recall that that uh highly acclaimed two-part documentary that HBO put out uh Netherland about Michael Jackson and his misdeeds um and so um that that's just like like like um that's an example what we're talking about where that was kind of about like um you know in the 2010s particularly the late 2010s there was a lot of initiative to do this like like reevaluation retrospective reconsideration of um various famous moments and famous figures from the 90s obviously Michael Jackson his roots go all the way back to the 70s but like that first trial was in 93 um and so you know that kind of filling in that same mode yeah oh so what a man can have a questionable relationship with Macaulay Coke and is that what you're saying um yes okay cool um I was gonna make a joke earlier when you said uh it's the truth I was like you're right Remington and that's why we're gonna get to the truth behind January 6th okay the Great Patriots tried to save a stolen election which is why I'm announcing my documentary 100% funded by the Daily Wire. Alright we will get to the bottom of this they keep the Brains do a Dinesh D'Souza uh docuseries retrospective and we review all of his crummy films.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:23

Yeah they're in it you're there is a trashy element to to it too just like anything else there's a well you could even say like um which I actually think is very I I think how insanely produced my roommate was watching this recently and I I actually uh hard knocks HBO following the the football team oh I could see that being a show yeah yeah do you know about okay do you know do you know about Hard Knocks Remington?

SPEAKER_04 1:11:45

I have heard of it I've never like watched it so oh no oh we I 30 for 30 do you know you know do you know what 3030 is Remington? I think so yes very informative very good sports document document yes it's very it's very acclaimed but that's actually a very good example of like we're gonna examine this thing right in sports but like it's so fucking well done it's like incredibly engaging and very acclaimed they get they get a lot of uh it's it's um and they do some good stories um yeah hard knocks too like there's a whole section of like sports document teams hard knocks I mean they'll follow one football team like what is it for the preseason I think for training camps they'll do it like during it's traditionally it's it's preseason they'll follow one team they they followed a whole conference though they felt like they one of the age they'll they change it out yeah they've changed it up recently but I I remember back in college uh and you guys know me I don't know dick about sports and I couldn't give a shit but I used to actually watch hard knocks uh in in the pre-season just to because HBO was just so good. I mean obviously they're getting all the footage live for the for the the documentary like uh but yeah it's um they do such great work there is such as someone that doesn't even like sports I remember watching on my own I really enjoyed um um player done yeah no I'm I'm good okay uh I really enjoyed uh starting five uh real blandon fans an all the huge basketball fan and um I don't know if you've heard of it uh Remington um they did two seasons of it on Netflix uh basically they picked five NBA players and they followed them throughout the entire season right um so season one of course had LeBron as one of the players because it's LeBron James but one thing that starting five did very well was they managed to in each of the two seasons that aired they picked a player who plays on the team that ended up winning the NBA championship which was incredible how that worked. So season one Jason Tatum was one of the players uh Boston Celtics won the championship that year season two they followed Shea Gil just Alexander Oklahoma Z Thunder won the championship that year so like it was interesting how they were able to like just kind of know like and you know you can figure you can pick like five teams sure and be like this one is probably gonna win the championship right but it's just impressive how that worked right because it lets you follow at least someone throughout the entire NBA season right because for most teams the season's done in like April but then you if you make it the playoffs you play all through May and you play into early June if you pick the finals. But I really enjoyed it you're just following these players and you get to see kind of like you know their home life, their training, you know like it's for someone like me who's a huge basketball fan, it's a nice glimpse into like this world that I'm never gonna experience right um and it's just like a nice glimpse into like just like no I I find these players and I find these these people interesting people right um and that was a series you know it's like an hour each episode but I watched it um you know and like that's nowhere near important as important right as like the movie we just watched or other documentaries but it's it's fun how all encompassing a documentary can be right um Court of Gold that was a good one that followed um mostly the USA team in 2024 when they won the Olympic medal for basketball but it followed all the other teams as well who you know in their fun delusion that they would beat the US team which they wouldn't but you know it's good it's fun to dream. I mean but it's fun watching these these people right you know they have they they have they have this goal in mind right there and then you see their dedication how much how much time energy and passion they're putting into trying to win a gold medal right that's an impressive feat in itself itself.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:22

I find it really interesting watching these things. Do we um do we have anything else specific to say about the thin blue line I knew we were gonna I was I knew we were gonna get into documentaries but I was trying to uh broadly but I was trying to think of like what other things to bring up about the movie but it was pretty straightforward he wants to explore genre I think it's fun that we could talk about. No I loved I loved watching a documentary medium too I was waiting for a but yeah I mean and then we get the end where you know we get the whole aside with the um just it a lot of it's just very bleak with the with the lying couple uh you know we get the tape recorder was a huge yeah that was I keep thinking where is this gonna be incredible I did I did have that in my mind I did keep thinking to myself I I don't know where this is ending up until we got to the whole part of the story where we learned that uh um Adams and Harris Harris Harris Harris Harris um like killed a man or um he broke into his home basically tried to kidnap his girlfriend yeah oh here's where the other shoes dropping and and he he he he he even say like he's like well the man pulled a gun on me and they're like dude you broke into his home you tried to take his also like you're in Texas right was this in Texas as well that this happened like you're in Texas you can shoot a man dead for breaking your home in Texas.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:46

You don't give a shit um but uh like he was just like yeah you pulled a gun on me though it's like buddy you are missing the point um try yeah what the I could I could see this I could see this being made into like a narrative feature even uh I mean yeah it's it's it it's it's like like like a like a movie like a full on like movie like a script and everything or what do you mean like yeah directed by the Cohen brothers oh yeah sure a little Cohen esque I guess um actually actually I wanted to highlight um my personal favorite uh personality that we got to experience I really liked the um the like uh disgruntled uh public defender the the the the woman um because because serious what happened it's like oh yeah and then we had this couple who um came up and and they said they saw the murder and so we used them as witness and they would cut to her and be like that's because they've been arrested three times and they wanted to get out of prison uh she was so fun she was so good I like I like how she was like yeah he just pointed at him hey the courtroom like he's that's the man who did it like that's the right there like and she's like he like pointing at him like very pregnantly and I'm just sitting there like I can just imagine sitting there like thinking like it's all scam.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:21

Well you remember when she was she was just like I had to go all the way to Supreme Court to find someone to agree with me about the statue and I'm like this poor lady is just like going back.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:34

She does she does feel like when she enters the story it does feel like she's the only one like in the cabinet meeting being like did I just did we all just can we agree that Pam Bondi didn't know a fucking thing she was talking about I mean come on she's like the only like I'm in crazy town here. Are you serious?

SPEAKER_02 1:18:55

Oh my god no she was very good um I was uh who was the guy who he's just like after that case he hasn't tried a case since like he kind of just like quit like he would um he was the other defense attorney basically like the fact that he saw someone that he clearly believed was innocent uh like go to prison and then someone that he clearly knew was guilty like just go off scot-free and was in fact a state witness it really like it it demoralized him it broke him it basically broke his faith in the law and so as he said he hadn't practiced ever since um and he explains that the prosecutor you know he's saying he's like you know like you're like you know the mark of a great prosecutor is basically getting someone off you know or like you know like basically like you're you're convicting like what is he explains that the prosecution is always like yeah I kind of I can't I can't can't believe I actually had won that like like and he's like you know like he he he kind of felt like he kind of felt that this man is is like innocent man but still got him in jail like it's kind of it's very telling how it's like you I guess you're doing your job right you know like you may well the prosecutor they so so Morris is essentially contending that the prosecutor's main motivation was to maintain his win streak he had never lost a case so it didn't really matter to him the fact that he was essentially trying to kill someone right that's what that's what the prosecutor's doing if he if he's seeking the death penalty he's trying to kill you as the point as the film as the film drives home um it didn't matter that he was like putting someone's life on the line it didn't matter for something they probably didn't do what mattered was uh preserving his reputation within the community which was having a perfect um a perfect conviction rate yeah no for sure I mean that that that that's that's the part that has not changed both ladies and gentlemen if you were listening and watching that has not changed at all I mean you take the case you think you're gonna win right that's just how you know it's scary um yeah no I don't know I don't know um what are we uh are are you you're you said you're familiar with um some of Morris's other work.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:10

Um is this tell me about some of his other stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:13

I'm not sure in terms of what I've seen I've only seen two other uh films from him he did actually was it three it's three actually sorry three three films from him um I actually had the privilege of seeing him uh in QA at the IFC um for his a film he did a couple years ago called Separated um that was a documentary that he did about the separation of migrant families during the first Trump administration it was actually like like like shortly before the election too so like part of the QA was him being like please please please like don't don't vote for him like don't if you put him back in power this will happen again and it's also like dude you're talking to an audience full of like liberal New Yorkers like like you're to you're preaching to the choir but still like you can feel like how like freaked he was evidently rightly so um oh Dan asked me like what my uh other experiences with uh Errol Morris were and I was talking about how um I was gonna name the films that I'd seen from him or or knew about and the and the one I started with was one where I'd actually seen him in QA after um at the IFC. So I was explaining that um as part of the QA because it was like not it was like shortly before it wasn't too long before election day in 2024 um that he was like pleading he was like please don't don't vote for him don't don't put him back in power because he'll do what he did before because the film was about the separation of families um that happened during the first administration um he also did a documentary I saw in like 2023 about uh John Lacarr. Um I think it was called like pigeonhole John Lacar is the real life uh basis well he wrote a bunch of books uh based on his experiences in the MI6 like a bunch of like fiction books and those books were the influent were the inspiration for Tinker Taylor Soldier Spy if you remember that movie from 2011 um and so he did a documentary about him and his life and career um and then also I think it was last year like early last year he had a documentary come out on Netflix I forget what it's called but it was about like the Manson murders basically um and then yeah um and one of his like those are just the ones I saw they're not like super big deals like I would say actually like his other like like very famous documentaries is uh Fog of War um which is a documentary he did on Robert McNamara. And essentially in that documentary he basically got McNamara to admit to like um um I forget the full details but essentially a lot of stuff he shouldn't have about US involvement in the lead up to um the Gulf of Tonkin resolution that brought formal you know previously we just had military advisors in Vietnam and that brought in like a formal like combat operations you know offensive operations like the ramping up of the of the what we would think of as the Vietnam War um and stuff like that. He also did a movie um I think it was the the movie he did the the documentary he did like right after this um what the fuck was it called sorry um it's also very famous and also about someone going by Dr. Death um but different film oh yes Mr. Death the Rise and Fall of Fred Luctor Jr who's about this guy who um was he had basically had a whole career um administering um executions um in the state of Texas I want to say um I might be wrong about that um administering executions and then it turned out that he was also in his private beliefs a Nazi a white a neo Nazi a white supremacist um so it's kind of like analyzing that whole trajectory and like what is truly within a man you know um that's like one of his other big famous ones um also another little experience I had with him is that Defunct land uh he occasionally will put out like a around the end of each year um he'll do a thing with his patrons where he'll be like he'll do like a live stream with his patrons and it'll be like oh I can talk about whatever you want me to talk about and usually it involves them like bullying him and sending him commercials that he has to review um because he because like like corporate advertisements just like drive him insane. And so like uh inadvertently he wound up taking a swipe at Errol Morris because Errol Morris is one of his mentors but they were making him watch these like you probably have seen the ads or like these high quality um Chipotle commercials where someone's like clearly interviewing these employees and being like and first I put this in the bowl and then I make it just to make it seem like it's all like really well crafted food that they like like toil over in the kitchen you know and then like he was like who who made this like who's this voice it sounds super familiar and then he looks it up it's like it's it's Al Morris and then he like became like the joker that like this like legendary um documentary filmmaker had like like stole out apparently to like for that sweet Chipotle cash probably to finance his next film like yeah commercial like they people like anytime you see an act a director like directing a commercial it's like why uh because they fucking pay commercials and music videos yeah yeah um that's the wait do you are you a patron of his or you just like read about this no he like uh releases that video like like a chunk of that video for free on his channel after the fact just as like an enticement to be like this could be stuff that you get if you uh join my Patreon you know yeah Remington's like interesting I'll watch it but no yeah the only Patreon you need to be subscribing to is Dan Ivy right folks uh no yeah um when I get a check I'll say yes that's right uh yeah cool no um I'm trying to any anything else really have on the thin blue line I mean yeah the score I gotta I don't know if it was uh Philip Glass I actually know that composer's name and uh I remember immediately thinking holy shit this music's really good and uh I I don't know if that was like a a novel thing to have a very at least a very I imagine a well regarded composer uh do a documentary that was the thing they talked about at the time and another reason why it was like this big I this big thing because again like documentaries are either like in most people's mind that that are either inaccessible art house pieces or nature docs. You're not going into them expecting like cinematic flour One of those flourishes being like a professional score. Um, with well, not a professional score, but like, you know, like a score that could be transposed to a narrative film and would stand out in a narrative film, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_04 1:28:13

Uh yeah, actually to time to that, Remington. Um, I was watching um you guys ever watch those like Vanity Fair videos, like World War II expert, you know, you know, like watches World War II movie clips talk about how accurate they are. Not if you guys have seen those. Um they had this professor of like TV history talking about the history of TV, and she talked about how like I actually didn't know this, that for most of its existence, Bravo was like a documentary channel before it became like reality TV. So I guess I guess would that have been people's experience with documentaries, like stuff on Bravo?

SPEAKER_02 1:28:44

Um yeah, for sure. Absolutely, like in a television context, um, or they're thinking of something like Man with a Movie Camera, which is like an experimental film. Sure. Um, you know, like it could go either way, but that's also similar to how like, you know, we you could probably remember this in our own lifetimes, but like IMAX as like a format used to be almost exclusively like nature documentaries. It was like a thing that you went to at the museum, you know, you know, like a bunch of cheetah going real in slow motion. Yeah, because like the IMAX cameras are huge, right? So it's not like e and they're loud, so it's not like easy for an actual filmmaker to go and use them. And it took like someone like basically Christopher Nolan to figure out how to like make them functional and popularize them, and eventually that led to IMAX becoming more of an entertainment medium rather than like I guess an educational one.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:35

In our lifetime, we've gone from Christopher Nolan basically being like, hey, this movie has like five scenes in IMAX to this whole movie was shot on IMAX. Yes. Um I remember being like that was one of the things for the Dark Knight, right? It was like, oh, these portions of it were shot on IMAX.

unknown 1:29:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:51

Now it's like, hey, come watch the Odyssey, the whole fucking thing's on IMAX.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:56

Nice, very cool. Um do you guys have and do you guys have a favorite documentary? I have a I have one of mine.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:04

But you're not well versed enough to like have one, I guess. Um the YouTube videos.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:15

We're talking about films, so no.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:17

Um whoa, fuck me then. Jesus, Mr. Are we doing podcasts?

SPEAKER_02 1:30:25

No, we're not doing the YouTube review podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:28

I mean, if you have a YouTube documentary that you really, really like, I mean.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:32

No, Remington said no already. I I I know I don't I I I don't think I do because like I'm just I'm obviously just not well versed enough.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:39

So I like I said, I'll I'll I'll send you boys some recommendations afterwards. Um, but my personal if I had to pick one, there's a lot of good ones, um, would be the act of killing.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:50

Oh, I've heard of that. Never seen it, but I'm aware of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:55

Very, very good. Very, very, very good.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:58

Um, yeah, it's it's a documentary where they eventually they essentially are um interviewing the perpetrators of a genocide in Indonesia, I want to say. Um and it's essentially, yeah, like decades after the fact the ones who did it?

SPEAKER_04 1:31:13

What?

SPEAKER_02 1:31:14

Yes, yes, they're interviewing the ones who did it because they're proud of that, right? They're not ashamed, right? So so like it's kind of like exploring like like the duality of man, you know, like like all these like deep character and personality questions. It's it's really it's really good, dude.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:30

Whoa, like that sounds riveting, yeah. Like what the fuck? Like, so when you were carrying out your ethnic your ethnic cleansing, how did you feel about it? Like, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_02 1:31:40

Yeah, yeah. So so that's one I would I would recommend. Actually, unrelated to this, I am I've I after months of effort of tracking it down, I am currently working my way through a documentary called Showa, uh, which is a very famous documentary. Uh sorry, why do I do that? Nine and a half hours long, so I am breaking it up into chunks. Um, but yes, it's a very famous historical documentary about the Holocaust, as you can infer from the title.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:06

Um I don't think you so long find it.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:09

Um, because it's like nowhere, like uh that's easily to get online. And then I we were finally able to find it.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:18

Is it like lost?

SPEAKER_02 1:32:19

No, it's not lost movie, it's just like not accessible online. Like, like not nervous streaming platforms really have it. Um, and by the time we found like a link, there was just like a whole logistical snafu in terms of my friend getting it for me and then handing it off. So eventually what I did was I went to the Queen's Public Library and got my ass a library card, and I had to place an order for it. The branch didn't have it, so I had to wait another week, right? And now I have the DVD, so I'm I am I am working my way through it.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:46

Oh, interesting. Okay. Yeah. Can I always go to the library? You know, I'm pretty sure I I read a tweet about this something recently where someone was like, Yeah, I couldn't find this fucking movie anywhere, and then the library had it. So shout out libraries, like libraries.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:00

Um, it's actually incredibly sir, because uh part of the part of the reason why it's so long is that he shot literally like 350 hours of raw footage, and he just like had to make a movie somehow, and so we condense it down to nine hours, and then like over the rest of the guy's life, Claude Landsman, he just put out like subsequent films of unused footage that are like not that long, like they're two hours long or whatever. Um, but he kept doing that until he the day he died in 2018, and then like there's still hours and hours of unused footage that are um were eventually bought by the Holocaust Museum. And so you can go to their archives and watch the rest of that footage that he never made into a film, um, but still like of interviews that he took of people of victims, perpetrators, and bystanders.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:44

Um so basically, like a very, very, very complete detailed basically like this is the Holocaust. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:50

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:51

Um that sounds that sounds so cool, like nerdy cool. Like I love shit like that.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's the deep files, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:00

Yeah, yeah, like the documentation, like the media, yeah. I I love that stuff. Um, I just wanted to shout out the films of uh that I have seen of one, uh Warner Herzog, who uh has great documentaries as well. I do remember I love a lot of his films. Uh Michael Moore. Do we like Michael Moore? I think Michael Moore's good, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:34:23

I watch Capital C do another young, impressionable kid.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:26

He's like he's like considered controversial even among left-wing people, but I feel like I don't know why. He's really good, isn't he? I've I remember liking the films that I used to see of him in high school.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:36

He has some weird ticks, but yeah, no, I liked I liked uh Bowling for Columbine when I watched that a few years ago.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:43

So yeah, like to me, he's very synonymous of like Bush administration, you know, yeah, absolutely. Like, you know, uh so uh it's like you know, and he does important work, I won't deny it, you know, and I I will you know he critiques capitalism and we should watch one day, we should watch Canadian Bacon.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:00

Do you remember that film? No that's one of his few narrative films, and it's about like a fictional invasion of Canada.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:08

Okay, from like the 90s.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:09

Yeah, yeah. We should we should watch, we should watch that one.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:12

That sounds like the the one back up, Remy. We got a plan for you to come back up before we just wrap up. The one documentary that I did want to show. Before we wrap up, I just wanted to shout out the one documentary that I do, I do is my absolute favorite of all time. Like the only one that really sticks out in my mind is from, I believe, like it's around 2012. It's called How to Make Money Selling Drugs. Uh it's I think it's very much about the it's about the war on drugs, and um it has a lot of celebrities in it, like about that struggled with drug abuse, a lot of references to the wire. Um, who is it? David Simon, the showrunner of The Wire. Um he's a big uh figure in the in the film. But the way what I love so much about that, about that documentary and how it's structured is that it it's presented to you as a sales pitch of like it literally has the voiceover movie guy going, are you are you stuck in a dead end job and have no like other aspirations in life? Are you in the projects? Like, are you in a rundown? Well, we have an answer for you. And then the whole film is going through of like how does one become like from like a street level drug um like like dealer to like a to like a uh like a mob boss and it interviews all these people as they got they got along the rungs, but it but I loved the way it was presented of like an instruct like a video game like instruction manual of like here's how you get to the top. Um but yeah, that was that was always like just stuck with me, the that creative presentation, but um, yeah. Anyway. Final thoughts. Um I'll go first. Uh I give this documentary an eight out of ten. I thought it was really great. Um, like I said, I think it was a little bit more of just how acclaimed it was of had to have be there type of things, but I still think the story was really, really interesting, and I thought the uh the reenactments were used extremely appropriately and um and tastefully. So um yeah, just a really straightforward, really crazy story, and the ending was a real gut punch, but I'm I'm glad that it I think it even I think it even makes the movie um more appreciative in my head, uh just thinking about how it actually got the guy out of jail in real life. So yeah. Great pick.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:40

Um thank you. Yeah, I also gave it an eight out of ten. I gave it a four out of five on Letterboxd. Um I was really glad to have seen this. Um I am really glad to continue my journey with Errol Morris, having liked a lot of his other films. I do want to check out Fog of War one of these days and and uh Faster, Cheaper Control, um and uh Mr. Death, those are all like high up there on my list. Um and yeah, no, I I I quite like this. I thought it was very effective. Um, it was very bleak because like I didn't look up like what the actual like outcome was, and so the fact that it depended on the note of like, well, he's still in prison. I was like, I was like, fuck. I was like um uh but yeah, no, uh it was very interesting to see what is basically the the the granddaddy of where a lot of our media has gone um in the inter in the intervening decades. So um I was glad to share this with you boys to get you thinking about the documentary medium, and maybe we can pick some more documentaries down the road. Who knows?

SPEAKER_00 1:38:56

For sure. I was so glad you I'm I'm I'm glad you chose a documentary, yeah. I agree.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:01

There's one I actually would like to pick, but I'm not gonna pick it because I don't want to do no documentary right up Remis, but uh yeah, I'm always down for that. Um but uh cool. Um my turn, right? Uh yeah, uh movie good. Uh I'm feeling a good four, uh I'm feeling a strong four, maybe four point five, closer to four out of five. Um I'm very happy to have watched this. Um I looked up what happened because I'm like, it's gonna fucking suck if this guy's dead. Like, like if he's dead because he was like executed. And you know, my my and you know, I I just read Trial by Fires and like you know, Todd ruling him, he was ultimately executed by the state of Texas, right? So I'm like, I'm watching, I'm like, fuck, I I I feel like this happened to him. And then like so when you put up his wiki, it's like died in 2010. I was like, oh no, was he executed? And I was like, oh wait, no, he wasn't executed, hooray! Like he died, but you know, he at least got to live the rest of his life outside of prison, right? So that was a nice bookend uh to his story. I was happy to see that. Um no, this was very good. Um definitely like just the subject matter, everything right up my alley, Remy. So thank you for that. Um literally, not a movie I think I actually would ever watch in any other regard. Like, I don't see myself, I mean maybe I don't know, maybe, right? But like just I had never heard of it, um, and I'm glad I I know of it now.

SPEAKER_02 1:40:21

Um for for clarification, I did eventually look it up. I just didn't initially I before I watched it, I didn't know what the outcome would be. And so I was like watching it with someone and it ended. I was like, well, that was bleak. And she was like, Why? Didn't you didn't you read what happened? I was like, no, because I don't spoil things. Yeah, I wanted to try not to. I went to look at people, oh okay, that's it's another thing that this film got him out of jail, so yeah, I looked it up too because I was like, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_04 1:40:51

I hope he didn't get executed.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:54

I'm glad you guys found that because I was looking for that as well, because I had the same reaction. I'm like, what do you mean he's still fucking in jail serving a life sentence? And uh I I think it does genuinely the rating goes up in my head because of that, because it's true like activist filmmaking that really did make a difference, you know? Um yeah, Kim Kardashian could never not be.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:16

Um yeah, good good pick. Movie good.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:19

Yeah, movie good. Gene, if you like this, you should check out The Perfect Neighbor. Sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:25

Oh yeah, big Netflix.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:27

That's a that's an Oscar nominated documentary this year from this year that is in a similar vein.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:34

Yeah. But anyway, Gene, your pick.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:37

Yeah. I'm not gonna hold you guys. I remembered like right after we last recorded, I was like, oh shit, I'm next. Cool. I should think about a movie to pick. And then I didn't do that. So then today I was like, oh fuck, I gotta pick a movie. Yeah, I don't know what I want to watch. Um, so I had a few options, but I always check letterbox now. I wanted to pick memento. You fuckers both watch memento already.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:02

Oh, it's one of my favorites of all time, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:03

That's in my four, Gene. What? I know I'm not as I'm I'm honestly not as familiar with like early Nolan like that. So and my friends were talking about uh Tenet, and my one friend was talking about she fucking hates Tenet, and then uh uh they were talking about the Odyssey and whatever. Um, and my one friend is is it's like one of my discourses like they're two of them are just like not looking forward to it, and then my other friend John and I were sitting there like being the ultimate Odyssey defenders, so I was like, I should watch the rarity lolan, but you fuckers both watched it already, and Dan loves it, of course. Um, and so was Remington. Um Miriam suggested Left Handed Girl because she really wants to see it, um, but Remington already watched it. And once I saw 2025 release date, I was like, Remy's already watched it. I guarantee he has, and he has um executive produced by Sean Baker, so I was gonna pick it because I knew Dan would like that, but and co-edited by Sean Baker. Yeah. So I'm just gonna watch it with Miriam because she wants to watch it. Um so you know, whatever. Um so then I was looking at there's a documentary I do want to watch, but I don't want to pick it right now. And then there's another movie that I thought about picking, but I'm not doesn't even as interesting to me. So I'm just gonna pick one from my back pocket, which basically it's a movie that I I know I was gonna pick up for one of my future picks. Uh so uh you guys remember the time that Brad Pitt and Kate Blanchett did a movie with a Mexican director?

SPEAKER_05 1:43:25

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:26

Uh Dan? Dan, I think you know what it is. Oh god, as soon as you say it, I'm gonna be like fuck, but yeah, I don't know. I'm not gonna play.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:34

You guys familiar with Alejandro Ignarrito?

SPEAKER_00 1:43:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:39

What did they do together? Which one? They did Babble together.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:44

I've been trying to watch Babbel.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:46

I don't think I'm familiar with this actually. Kate Glancett. Basically, it's the third in his like death trilogy or whatever as he calls it. It's Amodus Beatles. Uh I've got the second one.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:00

I'm gonna have to watch that full trilogy now for this. Fuck you, game.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:03

I I I almost picked Amodus Beatles, I did because Miriam loves that one, but I do really want to watch this one more. Um, and again, a director that's very near and dear to my heart, and this is a back pocket one for me, so perfect time where I just haven't had time to like pick a movie.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:19

I'll explain. There's a movie coming out this year, so this works out great.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:23

I love him dearly. Um Digger, yeah, with Tom Cruise. That's what we're watching. Uh I'm excited for it. I actually don't I I just know like the like the framing of the movie, like the the the narrative device of it, right? That's all I know. So I'm excited uh going into it. And it's interesting. I'm like, Brad Pitt in the fucking movie. Like it's so it's so interesting to me. Like it's especially since you know he cut his teeth on like uh uh the director of like on like very Mexican Spanish movies, right? Um and then this is like a more like I mean he had like a I mean Brad Pitt was pretty big by that point, right? So it's I'm always interested in seeing when that happens, right? When you take this like indie director who's like, I'm gonna tackle like you know, like like Bong Jun-ho tackling like Snowpiercer or Paris, or like you know, yeah, like Soul Piercer, right? You're you're giving him like a bigger budget with a Hollywood actor. Let's see what happens, right? I'm always interested in that um phenomenon. So like what Quarron did Prisoner of Ascoban. Um anyway, so that's where we're watching. We're watching Babbel 2006, right? I believe it was. Yes. Um and I check letterbox and none of you fuckers have watched it yet.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:31

I'm not I'm not familiar with it. I'm familiar with my resume.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:34

I always check. I always check because I'm like it's I look I scroll down to that no profile pick motherfucker and see if he put if there's if he's watched it.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:46

Alright.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:46

Yeah, I don't because I can't think of anything good.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:49

So just take a screen grab from one of these episodes.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:52

Just pay someone to like do one for you.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:55

One of my Discord picture is a picture of Waffle that I had uh this guy in England do for me, and I ended up befriending him.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:02

So all right. Well, thank you everyone for joining us uh this month for Eyes Wide Watch Club. You can like and subscribe, blah, blah, blah. Follow us on the RSS feed um or subscribe on YouTube if you want to see our beautiful faces. Um you can find me at Dan Ivy99 uh on Twitter and Letterboxd and YouTube and all the good stuff. Uh Remy, where can the people find you?

SPEAKER_02 1:46:28

Uh the people can find me on X, the Everything app. Uh that, you know, uh sorry, I am blanking because I am waving at the adorable child on the screen.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:42

Who just ended up like now we're ending now, just not take upstairs in the moment.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:47

Yeah, it's it's all good. Hope you're doing good, Maya. But yes, you can find me on Twitter. I am at angrier everyday. Uh because you know, aren't we all? You can come and see us, see me talk about politics and film and the crumbling state of the republic. Um, you can also find me on Litterbox, where I am at uh our Spore, um, where you can see me compulsively watch hundreds of films every year. Yay.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:20

Maya's like, I've just been added to Pete Hed sex uh had sex uh uh what is it the the chat? What is this chat? The the signal chat?

SPEAKER_01 1:47:29

I think it's signal, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:32

Gene, where can the people find you?

SPEAKER_04 1:47:35

You can find me on the board of Raytheon because we're gonna make a ton of money uh selling missiles to bomb Iran. So uh catch me there when I make tons of money off war crimes. Uh now you can find me on Letterboxd at J3AM865, and I am that also on Twitter, but don't go on Twitter, it's awful. I'm on Blue Sky, but I don't use Blue Sky because it's boring. Uh and yeah, you can find me on Letterboxd. I'm doing a thing where I'm not Remington and I can't watch a bunch of movies, but I'm trying to watch one movie a week. So I'm trying to watch 52 movies this year. I'm I'm on track, I think. Yeah, something like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:11

I like Alex seeing you on Letterboxd.

unknown 1:48:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:14

Yeah, I like it. I'm trying. Uh I watched um besides this movie, I watched the Ted movie because I watched the TV show. I saw that. Yeah. I need to it's fun because I will watch garbage and I'm like, I gotta review it. I watched it, and I'm just like, I'm really enjoying the Ted show, and like people on Twitter were like so mad because they're like, I can't believe this fucking kid grows up to be Mark Wahlberg. So I'm just like, and I'm sitting there and I genuinely could not what happened? Okay. I'm sitting there and I'm like, I I I cannot tell how much of this distaste is like for they just don't like Mark Wahlberg, or also like it's the character of John just not as good in the movie. And I watched the movie and I'm like, oh no, it's just Mark Wahlberg they don't like, because the character of John isn't really awful in the movie. They just don't like Mark Wahlberg.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:06

I thought that was so funny.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:08

Exactly. Uh and it was it was a it was a typical sexual product movie. But I did I did there were like two times I got an audible laugh. The first one was when it's like a quick cut to him be like, I go yeah, I don't really sound like Peter Griffin, because it's just a Peter Griffin voice. She's so intrigued that it's a microphone. Um yeah, so I watched that.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:33

Alright. Meyer, where can the people find you?

SPEAKER_04 1:49:37

Where can they find you? I'm not gonna I'm trying to teach her like the street she lives on and she knows it, but I'm not gonna have her say it, so don't say it. They can find you in your house with your parents mostly because that's where you are most of the time. Right? All right, you're only away from us every work day, we pay a lot of money. Good night, my uh say goodnight. Good night. Yeah, I heard that.